Monday/Tuesday Highlights

Well, now I’m in South East California (Visalia).

  1. When I saw this, a question occurred to me. If it is (allegedly) illegal to refuse a same sex couple on top of a cake if you run a cake shop. Can you refuse to put a stripper pole on a wedding cake? If you can, … then I’m afraid I don’t see the reasoning behind the first being illegal. If you can’t, that’s also wrong it seems to me.
  2. Tactics and Ukrainian resistance.
  3. Alas, more politicians in the beltway don’t do this.
  4. Wisconsin liberals show their liberal colors.
  5. Conservative vs liberal notions of diversity.
  6. In answer to the question, no it doesn’t insult the child or the mother, it indicates the speaker is either misogynistic moron or is trying to shock the listener with the how the pro-abortion crowd sees things.
  7. Just remember, an elephant is just a mouse that the government spec’ed and built.
  8. Of sport and danger.
  9. Yes, it might be best, but the FDA has no mechanism for approving a treatment like that.
  10. Punny.
  11. McCain puts his mark on where Obama stands in the stupid vs evil choice. Liberal outraged that McCain called Obama stupid, apparently they prefer willful evil.
  12. Mr Holder has apparently gone on record telling prosecutors to stop prosecuting gun laws like background checks and what types of gun are allowed and how/when you can carry, oh wait … it was a different law. If you’re a liberal cheering his “not stopping SSM in states where it is not legal” … how would you feel if it was about not holding to your states gun laws?
  13. Yet another racist liberal.
  14. Progress.

14 Responses to Monday/Tuesday Highlights

  1. Re: #4. I’ll admit, I get annoyed at the moral superiority exuded by (some) former service members. Some even look down their nose at those who served in different service branches. That said, its pretty dumb to expect a former service member to not list their service on a resume.

  2. Re #1 It’s illegal (possibly) to run a cake shop and refuse a cake to a same sex couple. It’s not illegal to reufse to put a groom-groom or bride-bride on top of the cake.

    The first is refusing service to a customer of a public accomodation. The second is simply not having a particular type of product (just like not having a stripper pole cake is simply not doing a particular product).

    If you want an analogy, think of the difference between a Jewish deli refusing to serve Christians versus a Jewish deli that simply doesn’t have pork, which some Christian customers may want.

    Re #6 So the pro-life guy was trying to be shocking in a Jonathan Swift sort of way by showing how pro-choicers supposedly think. Perhaps the reason this falls flat so badly is the numerous times pro-lifers have depicted women as little more than a frustration in the whole pregnancy thing rather than as an intregral part of it.

    11.McCain puts his mark on where Obama stands in the stupid vs evil choice. Liberal outraged that McCain called Obama stupid, apparently they prefer willful evil.

    Reading the article I can’t quite put my finger on what exactly mcCain is complaining about now. Seems like Putin ‘played’ the US because we haven’t put sanctions on the Ukraine for abusing protestors, but the protestors won and the President is out of office and the country is looking towards the West for economic help to Putin’s chagrin. What exactly would the last week or two have looked like if the US had a very smart non-evil President? Hmmmm.

    Re #4:

    1. It’s strange we don’t get to see this email exchange that supposedly culiminated in the recruitor knocking the applicant’s military service. From the article it sounds like this all came at the end of an argument that erupted between the two making this less about showing ‘true colors’ and more about what people do when they get into hissy fits, they throw everything they can at the other person regardless of whether or not it makes any sense.

    1.1 Discrimination is an odd charge to make in this though, since the girl got the job and it seems like she and the recruitor got into a flame war afterwards about where to get drug tested and finger printed….

    2. Curious Mark asserts that this is about ‘Wisconsin liberals’ showing their true colors, we have nothing to tell us this recruitor is a liberal nor anything that says anyone other than the one person was involved so where does the plural come from? But then what’s a bit of bearing false witness among frineds?

  3. Mr Howard,
    I have not encountered that superiority to which you allude in person. At my place of work we have a young man who was in the service (Iraq 2 tours). He has none of that quality and is an great guy to work with. That’s not to say it doesn’t exist, but I wonder how common.

  4. Boonton,

    The first is refusing service to a customer of a public accomodation. The second is simply not having a particular type of product (just like not having a stripper pole cake is simply not doing a particular product).

    Nyet. The second is not simply failing to have a particular type of product. Both are wedding cakes. This is about the plastic or ceramic figurines on top of the cake. It is (again apparently) illegal to refuse to put two brides or two grooms on the cake. The stripper getting married wants a pole to be put on the cake. Perhaps she suggests a large candy cane held by the bride. Perhaps instead of the normal bride she has a small barbie doll suited in a g-string and she wants that along with her groom. So. You are the legal counsel for a bakery. Can they refuse on moral grounds?

    Perhaps the reason this falls flat so badly is the numerous times pro-lifers have depicted women as little more than a frustration in the whole pregnancy thing rather than as an intregral part of it.

    I have no idea what you mean by this.

    But then what’s a bit of bearing false witness among friends?

    Is this to divert attention from your hypocritical argument in the other thread? Do you think that the person who thinks military service is a stain is a conservative? Interesting.

  5. This is about the plastic or ceramic figurines on top of the cake. It is (again apparently) illegal to refuse to put two brides or two grooms on the cake. The stripper getting married wants a pole to be put on the cake. Perhaps she suggests a large candy cane held by the bride.

    The baker can simply state that wedding cakes sell with a bride and groom on top. He doesn’t sell the figurines individually. Likewise whether or not he wants to honor the candy cone as stripper pole request is up to the baker. His reasons for these policies may be religious, may be pragmatic (since most wedding cakes will be bride-groom he may end up running short of one type of figurine and he doesn’t want to have to start managing inventory), may simply be artistic or whatnot. You can’t discriminate by customer but by product you’re free to discriminate as much you want.

    By me there’s a chain store that specializes in Chritian themed stuff. In it you’ll find lots of books and various knick knacks. It doesn’t require customers to be Christian. You’re free to be, say, Hindu and shop there for a little angel figurine. But you won’t find non-christian items there. If you’re looking for some Wiccian thing for your friend’s birthday you’ll have to shop elsewhere. This would NOT fall under religious discrimination by the store.

    Perhaps instead of the normal bride she has a small barbie doll suited in a g-string and she wants that along with her groom.

    The customer is free to do whatever they want to a cake they purchased and paid for in full. If a baker doesn’t have or doesn’t make the type of cake you want the law says nothing more than go look for another baker.

    Is this to divert attention from your hypocritical argument in the other thread? Do you think that the person who thinks military service is a stain is a conservative?

    I have no idea. How does that absolve you from bearing false witness?

  6. Boonton,

    The baker can simply state that wedding cakes sell with a bride and groom on top.

    Didn’t a high court rule that this was illegal discrimination in Colorado? I thought it had. Indeed googling indicates it was ruled illegal but is now (perhaps) going to the Supreme Court. So. You might want to say he can do this, but in point of legal fact in Colorado at least, you cannot. So, presumably, you can’t “not sell” a stripper pole on the top of your cake. Is this right?

    The customer is free to do whatever they want to a cake they purchased and paid for in full.

    I agree. But this customer wants the baker to do it for him, you know, “artistically”.

    How does that absolve you from bearing false witness?

    I didn’t “bear false witness”. I assume he’s liberal. You seem to think this is false, but you have no basis for that either.

  7. Didn’t a high court rule that this was illegal discrimination in Colorado? I thought it had.

    No it didn’t.

    But this customer wants the baker to do it for him, you know, “artistically”.

    I’d like McDonald’s to sell better tasting chicken. All the law offers me is the fact that McDonald’s cant deny me something on it’s menu provided I’m a paying customer.

    I didn’t “bear false witness”. I assume he’s liberal.

    Since you don’t know this it’s false witness. You also assumed the plural (“liberals show their…”) out of what you knew was a single person so you cannot escape the charge.

  8. Boonton,

    No it didn’t

    Sorry. Bzeeerp. Yes it did.

  9. Boonton,

    out of what you knew was a single person so you cannot escape the charge.

    No. I also feel that sort of opinion is not unique among Wisconsin liberals.

  10. From your link:

    State administrative law judge Robert N. Spencer issued a ruling Friday in favor of the gay couple, ordering Mr. Phillips to “cease and desist discriminating against complainants and other same-sex couples by refusing to sell them wedding cakes or any other product [he] would provide to heterosexual couples.”

    So you’re telling me that this baker provides groom-groom or bride-bride cakes to heterosexual couples but not gay ones? Nice try.

    No. I also feel that sort of opinion is not unique among Wisconsin liberals.

    I like how you seem to think ‘bearing witness’ consists of sitting around imagining things and then demanding to be taken seriously on the grounds that since you think your imagination is pretty reasonable therefore should be treated as evidence.

  11. Boonton,

    So you’re telling me that this baker provides groom-groom or bride-bride cakes to heterosexual couples but not gay ones? Nice try.

    I’m not sure what your point is here. The baker apparently “lost” the case at this point. This strikes me as a very disingenuous question. I’d imagine that the number of “groom-groom” or “bride-bride” cakes requested by heterosexual couples over the last 30 years in the entire country is less than 1.

    Was your itemization of exactly what sort of cakes supposed what a baker is required to do? This is incredible onerous and quite stupid. The point being, if I’m an “artistic” baker and I’m willing to work with my clients to make a cake especially them … the question at hand is are there request made for cake design that I can refuse because I don’t want to do that for personal reasons, e.g., stripper pole. Apparently the answer by court fiat is. No. I think that is wrong, first by freedom association and that second that I am not in a contractual agreement with a customer until he has agreed to pay and I have agreed to do work. Before a contract is made I should be free to do business with whomever I please.

    I like how you seem to think ‘bearing witness’ consists of sitting around imagining things and then demanding to be taken seriously on the grounds that since you think your imagination is pretty reasonable therefore should be treated as evidence.

    And I like you you demur to actually admit that my reasonable assumption is in fact reasonable. Again, do you seriously think someone who says that you served in the armed forces “just to make a buck” and that such service is worthless is the thing a conservative would say? When I grew up in New Jersey, in 7th grade we were asked “if drafted would you serve” and only two of us rose are hands to say yes (me and another dude). Guess what, it was a very blue township. Things haven’t changed much is all I can say.

  12. I’m not sure I get why you are so confused by this. I really wonder if all this confusion is honest or manufactured by the story.

    For example:

    Was your itemization of exactly what sort of cakes supposed what a baker is required to do?

    Errr no, I don’t itemize all the cakes a baker makes. The baker does that. I walk into a baker and tell him I want a cake shaped like a triangle. He tells me “sorry, I only do round cakes”. I go to another one, he tells me “I don’t put pictures on my cakes”. What a baker does or doesn’t do is up to the baker.

    The discrimination laws apply to the customers. A baker is free to say he doesn’t bake cakes shaped like a cross. But he isn’t free to say he doesn’t sell his cakes to Christians.

    The point being, if I’m an “artistic” baker and I’m willing to work with my clients to make a cake especially them … the question at hand is are there request made for cake design that I can refuse because I don’t want to do that for personal reasons, e.g., stripper pole

    When hiring an artist you’re limited to what the artist can and will offer. Courts do not generally issue orders of ‘specific performance’. Your ‘artist’ cake maker can say he will only do bride-groom cakes no matter what. If a gay couple is willing to live with that then he can’t discriminate against them as customers.

    Apparently the answer by court fiat is

    I cited your own source that said the opposite. Again nice try, but no cigar…or stripper pole for that matter.

    And I like you you demur to actually admit that my reasonable assumption is in fact reasonable.

    You’ve made no reasonable assumption, you made facts up and pretended you were reporting them. A reasonable reading of the report was that two people got into a hissy email flame war and one bashed the other’s military service. “two people get into an extended email argument, at least one says something stupid at the end of it” says nothing to me about any of their genders, politics, religions, or much of anything.

    When I grew up in New Jersey, in 7th grade we were asked “if drafted would you serve” and only two of us rose are hands to say yes (me and another dude). Guess what, it was a very blue township.

    Lincoln wasn’t a popular President in NJ.

  13. Boonton,

    Lincoln wasn’t a popular President in NJ.

    I’m not quite that old. Mr Carter was President.

  14. That doesn’t help your case so much. Your 18 yr old school chums then are almost within a decade of their first social security check. Sobering.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>