Today in a BSA related discussion the following statement was made,
…and that’s without even getting into the dubious idea of “manliness” — the idea that there is one right way to be a man.
and to this I have to agree with the BSA. There is in fact only one right way to “be a man”, this is not a multiple choice exam. Examine for a moment, the BSA Scout Law:
Scout Law
A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly,
courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty,
brave, clean, and reverent.
which pretty much nails it. One has expressed manliness by (a) being a man and (b) living those 12 virtues.
There is no “alternate” or “other” way to be a man.
None of those virtues is specific to men or even more common among men!
I don’t disagree with the BSA statement. True there’s no reason women couldn’t and shouldn’t be all those things. I think, though, this illustrates the rather sad aspect of the BSA. They would ditch the opportunity to spread and support those worthy values to the wider world in exchange for preserving small minded bigotry against gays and athiests (and agnostics).
JA,
“not common among men” … yes I agree. Manliness and virtue among men is not healthy today.
Both,
Not specific to men … so what? My claim is that these points/virtues encapsulate manliness. What is missing if this is wrong?
Actually you misread my statement Mark. I said that it was a good thing to support those virtues for men even though those virtues are good for women as well.
I think JA’s position is that ‘how to be manly’ should be a list of things that are exclusively for men. For example, I think JA has in mind something like Obama’s statement that making a baby is easy but being a good father is an important duty…which is something that is exclusively targetted towards men. I’m not as much of a language nazi in that regard.
My original point about the rigid idea of manliness had to do with gender roles — specifically the idea that men should like women, but also things like men should be into hunting and fishing and all that stuff as well. I think that’s an attitude that is prevalent among conservatives and that Boy Scouts probably contributes to. Obviously, I have no problem with hunting and fishing and think it’s probably good for most kids to do it, so don’t imply otherwise.
If you want to know what I’m talking about, look at any truck commercial or any stereotype of liberals. (Many) conservatives mock the metrosexual, the intellectual, the latte-drinker, the fancy beer drinker, men who don’t like sports, women who don’t wear makeup, stay-at-home dads, the city-dweller, men who dance or figure-skate, etc.
You say that you think a homosexual can be manly, and that’s nice, but I don’t think a lot of conservatives or the Boy Scouts would agree with you.
True but the Scouts are about scouting which is basically outdoors activities like hunting, camping, fishing, hiking etc. If someone has no interest in that at all they wouldn’t care to join the BSA (or other scouting groups that do not discriminate). Likewise if a woman wasn’t into something that’s typically seen as female (say the National Sewing Club) she wouldn’t join a group devoted to it. BUT it’s not the groups fault that they are dedicated to something that aligns with typical gender roles.
Let me ask you, just suppose the BSA took the opposite stand on athiests and gays how would you feel about them and Mark’s citation of their book and virtues? (Even better, though, would today’s conservatives really give a crap about the BSA? How much of this lauding of the BSA is really just a backdoor way for conservatives to thumb their noses at gays?)
BTW
http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/MeritBadges.aspx
There are merit badges for such non-typically male things as ‘textiles’, ‘cooking’, ‘basketry’, ‘art’ and ‘pottery’. I think in all fairness the scouts are a good option for giving boys positive activities *without* instilling some type of cartoonish ‘he-man’ gender role into them.
Ok, now *that* is a good point, Boonton. I stand corrected.
That just leaves the whole discrimination against gays and atheists thing.